2015 RULES: Suggested Topics

[bigphil44]

I'm certainly not married to Madden grades, but I don't see any workable alternative.

Having a committee of graders with one person each responsible for certain teams' grades would lead to way too much variation based on who is doing the grading. PFF uses volunteer graders to help them come up with their grades, but these people get some training and the site uses several graders to attempt to average out good/bad graders and possible mistakes. There is just no way to standardize this across a handful of people. I also think that, even though we have plenty of smart people here who love football, scouting/grading is a very particular skill that takes a lot of practice. I just don't think we can expect people to do a good job of this.

Madden grades have their faults. I think the biggest issues are that the grades are tied into game balance (so changes tend to be conservative and I think the non-skill positions always tend to get shafted a bit) and that the overall grade has perhaps become less important to Madden than the individual skill grades. However, they have way more eyes and more information than we could expect to compile (for example, Donny Moore has acknowledged that they pay attention to PFF ratings when making grade updates).

Well said.

Furthermore, I think it would open up a whole can of worms having other GM's set our grades for our teams. These leagues like any other organizations has its cliques; its rivalries; and its arguments. Those issues may not be out in the open but there's some back biting behind the scenes. And we see this come up in trades over and over again: a players worth is in the eye of the beholder.

I would have an issue with other GM's setting the grades for my team. We need an independent resource and while Madden may not be perfect-- especially with non skill positions--it's the best we have right now.

Agreed.
I don't see any alternative and I don't think it's that big of a deal. After a year or two you figure out how it works with the Madden Grades. I do think they've gotten better over the last few seasons, especially as they reference different performance metrics more and more. My biggest complaint about Madden ratings is the reactionary knee-jerk ratings changes from week to week. Like watching a lineman go from a 70 to an 80 over the course of 10 games with solid play and then they drop him back to a 73 just because he got destroyed by JJ Watt or Suh. I mean, what do they expect?

I couldn't disagree more. The madden ratings are a joke. Not like it matters anyway since the commissioner wants to go with the Madden ratings and will do so for a very long time. We are stuck with the embarrassment of Donny Moore the ratings czar at Madden who doesn't even watch the games nor does he even use pro football focus or any other performance reference metric on a regular basis. He mainly uses sportscenter highlights.

So for your entertainment I'm going to give you two different player examples to show you how bad the madden ratings are. Now REMEMBER this is for educational purposes only. The commissioner has already ruled on this topic and while I disagree 100% with his assessment and ruling; unfortunately I've come to accept it.

I'll give you player A and Player B scenarios and there grades and I'll let you decide if the grade difference between the players are fair. If you want the actual players names then send me a PM.

1st scenario is at the LB position.

Player A---- 110 total tackles, 83 solo and 27 assisted. Had 3.5 sacks and 2 forced fumbles with 1 pass defended. Rated by PFF as the 7th best cover linebacker in football. Grade is a 77.

Player B----107 total tackles, 84 solo and 23 assisted. Had 1 sack, 1 forced fumble, 2 ints and 5 passes defended. Rated by PFF as the 4th best insider linebacker in football. Grade is a 84.

One note is player A played about 3 more quarters than player B.

2nd scenario is at the RT position.

Player A----Ranked 82nd out of 84 of all tackles in football by PFF and was graded out as the WORST right tackle in football. Here is one man's opinion on player A's performance in 2014: "Player A was one of the league's worst players at his position last year, struggling equally in both pass protection and in the run game. Sure, he's young, and there is still considerable upside here, but in no sane universe will this guy be handed a starting job again." Grade is a 77.

Player B----Ranked in the mid 50's out of 84 tackles in football by PFF. In successive weeks shutout Julius Peppers and Jared Allen and graded out positively both weeks. Grade is a 61.

These are just 2 examples. I could easily give 20 more.

[Onyxgem]

I'm certainly not married to Madden grades, but I don't see any workable alternative.

Having a committee of graders with one person each responsible for certain teams' grades would lead to way too much variation based on who is doing the grading. PFF uses volunteer graders to help them come up with their grades, but these people get some training and the site uses several graders to attempt to average out good/bad graders and possible mistakes. There is just no way to standardize this across a handful of people. I also think that, even though we have plenty of smart people here who love football, scouting/grading is a very particular skill that takes a lot of practice. I just don't think we can expect people to do a good job of this.

Madden grades have their faults. I think the biggest issues are that the grades are tied into game balance (so changes tend to be conservative and I think the non-skill positions always tend to get shafted a bit) and that the overall grade has perhaps become less important to Madden than the individual skill grades. However, they have way more eyes and more information than we could expect to compile (for example, Donny Moore has acknowledged that they pay attention to PFF ratings when making grade updates).

Well said.

Furthermore, I think it would open up a whole can of worms having other GM's set our grades for our teams. These leagues like any other organizations has its cliques; its rivalries; and its arguments. Those issues may not be out in the open but there's some back biting behind the scenes. And we see this come up in trades over and over again: a players worth is in the eye of the beholder.

I would have an issue with other GM's setting the grades for my team. We need an independent resource and while Madden may not be perfect-- especially with non skill positions--it's the best we have right now.[/quote]

Agreed.
I don't see any alternative and I don't think it's that big of a deal. After a year or two you figure out how it works with the Madden Grades. I do think they've gotten better over the last few seasons, especially as they reference different performance metrics more and more. My biggest complaint about Madden ratings is the reactionary knee-jerk ratings changes from week to week. Like watching a lineman go from a 70 to an 80 over the course of 10 games with solid play and then they drop him back to a 73 just because he got destroyed by JJ Watt or Suh. I mean, what do they expect?[/quote]

I couldn't disagree more. The madden ratings are a joke. Not like it matters anyway since the commissioner wants to go with the Madden ratings and will do so for a very long time. We are stuck with the embarrassment of Donny Moore the ratings czar at Madden who doesn't even watch the games nor does he even use pro football focus or any other performance reference metric on a regular basis. He mainly uses sportscenter highlights.



I am sorry, but right now Madden grades are the best for the league to keep it going, do you understand of even have a slight idea how much complaining there would be going on if we had a committee of owners decide the grades....that would first be an utter disaster with the favoritism, ect that would happen and second the commish would not have enough time to over see it all and the league would just end....so while Madden grades might have their flaws, there is no better system we can use right now to decide grades.

[bigphil44]

I'm certainly not married to Madden grades, but I don't see any workable alternative.

Having a committee of graders with one person each responsible for certain teams' grades would lead to way too much variation based on who is doing the grading. PFF uses volunteer graders to help them come up with their grades, but these people get some training and the site uses several graders to attempt to average out good/bad graders and possible mistakes. There is just no way to standardize this across a handful of people. I also think that, even though we have plenty of smart people here who love football, scouting/grading is a very particular skill that takes a lot of practice. I just don't think we can expect people to do a good job of this.

Madden grades have their faults. I think the biggest issues are that the grades are tied into game balance (so changes tend to be conservative and I think the non-skill positions always tend to get shafted a bit) and that the overall grade has perhaps become less important to Madden than the individual skill grades. However, they have way more eyes and more information than we could expect to compile (for example, Donny Moore has acknowledged that they pay attention to PFF ratings when making grade updates).

Well said.

Furthermore, I think it would open up a whole can of worms having other GM's set our grades for our teams. These leagues like any other organizations has its cliques; its rivalries; and its arguments. Those issues may not be out in the open but there's some back biting behind the scenes. And we see this come up in trades over and over again: a players worth is in the eye of the beholder.

I would have an issue with other GM's setting the grades for my team. We need an independent resource and while Madden may not be perfect-- especially with non skill positions--it's the best we have right now.

Agreed.
I don't see any alternative and I don't think it's that big of a deal. After a year or two you figure out how it works with the Madden Grades. I do think they've gotten better over the last few seasons, especially as they reference different performance metrics more and more. My biggest complaint about Madden ratings is the reactionary knee-jerk ratings changes from week to week. Like watching a lineman go from a 70 to an 80 over the course of 10 games with solid play and then they drop him back to a 73 just because he got destroyed by JJ Watt or Suh. I mean, what do they expect?[/quote]

I couldn't disagree more. The madden ratings are a joke. Not like it matters anyway since the commissioner wants to go with the Madden ratings and will do so for a very long time. We are stuck with the embarrassment of Donny Moore the ratings czar at Madden who doesn't even watch the games nor does he even use pro football focus or any other performance reference metric on a regular basis. He mainly uses sportscenter highlights.



I am sorry, but right now Madden grades are the best for the league to keep it going, do you understand of even have a slight idea how much complaining there would be going on if we had a committee of owners decide the grades....that would first be an utter disaster with the favoritism, ect that would happen and second the commish would not have enough time to over see it all and the league would just end....so while Madden grades might have their flaws, there is no better system we can use right now to decide grades.[/quote]

Oh; trust me I understand what your saying, but all I've been trying to do and say is maybe its time to start thinking outside the box so hopefully one day soon we can transition from the madden ratings to something better. Also, I know how the owners are around here; heck they can make another sharknado movie with some of the owners from the DFFL. What really bothers me is that some of the most skilled and brightest players in fangm think that Donny Moore is doing a good job with the ratings.

[Ben C.]

Oh; trust me I understand what your saying, but all I've been trying to do and say is maybe its time to start thinking outside the box so hopefully one day soon we can transition from the madden ratings to something better. Also, I know how the owners are around here; heck they can make another sharknado movie with some of the owners from the DFFL. What really bothers me is that some of the most skilled and brightest players in fangm think that Donny Moore is doing a good job with the ratings.

The thing is that the ratings system has been discussed many times over the last 9 years of FanGM, with many suggested alternatives (in fact, the use of a ratings committee has been suggested at least once before). The conclusion is always that Madden is the best approach.

It's frustrating to me, and I assume some of the other long-standing GMs, that this issue keeps coming up for heated discussion year after year. Until there is another free, public domain alternative to Madden that provides regular updates superior to Madden, Madden will continue to be the best resource for our needs.

[Goodell]

Oh; trust me I understand what your saying, but all I've been trying to do and say is maybe its time to start thinking outside the box so hopefully one day soon we can transition from the madden ratings to something better.

From the very beginning years ago we've been thinking about other grade options. It comes up frequently and about every year at some point. That thinking about grades and our options wouldn't start just today, though, it started so many years ago and is always a topic on my and people's minds for years.

The majority of players here I've talked with over the years don't believe there are no problems ever with those grades. I myself question many of the grade adjustments when I see some of them and import those grades.

From the very beginning my intent originally was grade independence for a wide variety of reasons (many of them legal reasons if this was to grow more). One of the reasons I haven't expanded this much more or and started charging for new leagues is related to not having our own grades independent of other products. Years ago that was the intent. It isn't that everyone loves that grade resource or would never ever want something different because it's so beloved by everyone by you. Lots of energy and passion put into hating someone else's products or opinions, and that's fine but that doesn't get us very far toward real solutions here.

Whether most people totally like everything about that resource or the people who publish it isn't really what matters at all. The questions is what are our alternatives. I'll make a poll regarding this to take it beyond words into something more quantifiable.

Premium paid services are not an option at all legally. I think you'll also find (although I may be mistaken we'll see) that a vast majority of players here wouldn't want their grades determined by other players here primarily with all of the potential issues there. We're ALWAYS on the lookout for a better freely available, publicly published, regularly updated resource to use instead. Nobody's ever submitted a better resource. If you find one, please let us know as we're always interested in something like that. It would be GREAT to have some different options to evaluate and give us more options. There just haven't been any other than what's available that we use now.

Unless I've misjudged previous conversations here over the years and a majority of players here want their grades determined by their fellow players, there's only one other alternative if nothing better found that meets our needs independently. That would be for me to privately consider lots of different factors (both paid and free), come up with private methods for general consensus rankings that weren't driven by any one source, and publish league grades myself.

I'll make a poll with some of our very limited options to verify some of those thoughts, and will remain on the lookout as always for a better solution to be available.

[Nathan S.]

As Troy has stated, there simply aren't better alternatives.

I don't think many will argue for Madden ratings because of how superior they are over other options, but because of legal options right now they are the best options. There are knee jerk reactions to players, but I also think some other ratings are fairly accurate.

I don't think going to a player voted rating system is possible. Too many consequences of people rating their own players, being subjective, etc. In the end, every team is hurt and benefits from the Madden ratings and until we can come up with something else it is really the only option.

[Knighty Knight]

If we decline the option on a rookie that has the 5th year do they become normal FA where we have unlimited bidding or do they become FA where there is no unlimited bidding to the team that they are on?

There were no new systems or scripts built around team options for first rounder contracts. Just first round contracts initially structured in a way that allowed people to make those same decisions without any cap hit impacts to replicate that same choice of taking on that higher last year salary or saying good bye to the player before that higher option year kicked in.

I haven't done all the research yet and open to more discussion on it, but initially had a sense that most guys who don't have their first round pick options picked up for the most part weren't going to be highly likely to be brought back by their home teams at a discount as our sim teams may want to do themselves. That it was usually going to be a no-brainer to either keep that player that extra option year or else they likely were going to be gone to another team. Not totally sure yet that's how it tends to happen (and we don't have a lot of history with that quite yet to look at probably). But if that's how it mostly happens, I tend to not be in favor of extra building of new tools for stuff that's not happening in reality.

Before we start a new season, there'll be more research into that, more discussion and some conclusions on that ahead. If that's something that's happening in reality (teams not picking up those options but highly likely to resign them back for less than the option) I'd be much more open to rules allowing for that here too. Probably would have to be manual with me modifying each individual upon request in the short term since we haven't built anything to process those kinds of situations.

A big argument for allowing unlimited bid advantages even if a team declines to continue a first rounder contract with that high last option year is that first rounders would be less valuable without that. Some I think have said it would be better to have second rounders instead in that case. To me, I almost kind of like that, though, personally with the situations we often find ourselves in unrealistically with teams piling up numerous amounts of first round picks. They are free to do that (so long as can fit in salary cap) and no rules against that, but at the same time it's arguably one of the more unrealistic things we have with teams able to have so many first round picks. If things shifted to where teams weren't as motivated to pile up as many first round picks as possible if they saw some disadvantages to the first round pick contracts (having to keep them through that last high option year or cut them loose before that) that might discourage some of the unrealistic stockpiling of first rounders (some might say that'd be for the better overall). Adding more and more advantages to first round contracts arguably would keep giving more value to first round picks and encourage more stock piling.

It's something that's come up and something we have to decide this off-season if we're going to change our initial approach (just structuring the contracts to replicate that option choice) or build some other processes to deal with those select players differently. Open to thoughts and more research on that. I'll look into it more myself with some research for a later poll on the subject.

Found this on ESPN:

• First wave of new-CBA first-round FAs: One aspect of the collective bargaining agreement that was agreed to in 2011 was that all first-round picks would have a fifth-year team option built into their contracts. That put teams on the clock for the first time last year, as each had to decide whether to exercise that option (for the 2015 season) by May 3, 2014.

As it turns out, 11 of the 32 players did not receive the option from their teams, meaning those players became free agents this offseason (provided they had not previously been released). Of those 11 players, only Saints running back Ingram wound up re-signing with the team that drafted him, as he landed a four-year deal just before free agency began. Others, including defensive tackle Nick Fairley (Rams) and quarterback Christian Ponder (Raiders), have found new homes in free agency.

[Goodell]

Found this on ESPN:

• First wave of new-CBA first-round FAs: One aspect of the collective bargaining agreement that was agreed to in 2011 was that all first-round picks would have a fifth-year team option built into their contracts. That put teams on the clock for the first time last year, as each had to decide whether to exercise that option (for the 2015 season) by May 3, 2014.

As it turns out, 11 of the 32 players did not receive the option from their teams, meaning those players became free agents this offseason (provided they had not previously been released). Of those 11 players, only Saints running back Ingram wound up re-signing with the team that drafted him, as he landed a four-year deal just before free agency began. Others, including defensive tackle Nick Fairley (Rams) and quarterback Christian Ponder (Raiders), have found new homes in free agency.

Thanks for the research there.

That's another tricky situation we have to figure out. The easiest way to implement that at the time was structuring our first round contracts to have a similar choice for our sim teams (either keep them through a larger value last season or else let them go with no additional cap hit required at that point based upon how we set it up to essentially provide that option choice).

The information above there seems to verify our initial thinking there somewhat, with nearly 2/3 being deemed worthy of that last option year salary in the NFL. 1/3 being deemed unworthy of that with all but one of those going to another team in free agency.

I'm putting 2015 roster finance pages together ahead, and we have a space at the bottom for teams to designate their tagged players. I'm looking at what it might take to also have teams enter first round pick option decisions there too and have that automated in the future (switching our placeholder values into tagged salary values if a team exercises those options or making it zero if not). If that's something that's not too difficult to implement, we'll probably do that. If not, worst case is a situation not unlike what's happening to NFL teams where the guys worth it for the most part have that last higher salary year stay on the books, and those that aren't worth it for the most part part ways with their team before that. If we end up able to implement that ahead, but that first batch of first rounders not having those placeholder seasons would probably involve a team choice and more manual roster adjustment this first time.

[RebelFan]

What about adding defensive touchdowns into the weekly updates?

[Chad55]

This is a little bit off what has been talked about, but I was wondering how a team can have 2 fullbacks count towards there O-line grade? I'm not positive but do many NFL teams carry 2 fullbacks? I just wanted to get a little clarification on this.